Feb. 13, 2026

156. Sustaining the Arts: The Orchestra of San Antonio’s Plan to Merge Performance and Education

This week on bigcitysmalltown, we examine the future of professional classical music in San Antonio in the wake of disruption, dissolution, and ongoing uncertainty for long-standing arts organizations. San Antonio native Paul Montalvo, a former firefighter who now leads Orchestra San Antonio, discusses growing the organization from a $45,000 budget to a projected $2.4 million this year, and the unique model he believes can sustain orchestral music in the city where prior efforts have struggled.

Host Cory Ames sits down with Montalvo to address the realities facing professional musicians, the collapse of the San Antonio Symphony, and the Philharmonic’s current difficulties, asking whether San Antonio can support and sustain a world-class orchestra—both now and long-term.

They discuss:

• How Orchestra San Antonio’s hybrid model merges performance and education, employing musicians as both performers and artist-educators

• The challenges and prospects for funding arts programming outside traditional public education or city infrastructure

• The organization’s goal to employ 40–50 full-time faculty artists by 2031, and what it would take to make that a reality

• The impact and limitations of philanthropy versus tax-funded support for the arts in a rapidly changing city

• What other Texas and U.S. cities can—and cannot—teach San Antonio about building sustainable arts infrastructure

This episode offers an unfiltered look at what must change for orchestral music to thrive in San Antonio, and the questions every arts patron, donor, and resident should consider as the city’s cultural future is shaped.

RECOMMENDED NEXT LISTEN:

▶️ #96. How a Baggage Handler Became One of San Antonio’s Most Iconic Artists – What does it really take to build a creative life in San Antonio? Host Bob Rivard sits down with Gary Sweeney to uncover how a longtime baggage handler turned his passion for storytelling, humor, and public art into a lasting legacy across the city’s landscape—perfect listening for anyone inspired by unconventional journeys and local impact.

-- --

CONNECT

📸 Connect on Instagram

🔗 Join us on LinkedIn

🎥 Subscribe on YouTube

SPONSORS

🙌 Support the show & see our sponsors

THANK YOU

⭐ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts

⭐ Rate us on Spotify

00:00 - Introduction

00:57 - PART I

30:27 - PART II

43:49 - Conclusion

WEBVTT

00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:28.320
Welcome to Big City Small Town, the show about the people who make San Antonio go and grow. I'm your host today, Corey Ames. Paul Montalvo was a San Antonio firefighter for 26 years, and today he now leads the Orchestra San Antonio, an organization he's grown from a $45,000 to $2.4 million budget, with now the goal of employing 40 to 50 full-time musician educators

00:00:28.809 --> 00:00:43.049
San Antonio Symphony dissolved in 2022. It seems the Philharmonic, the succeeding organization, is struggling now, canceling concerts, facing eviction.

00:00:43.369 --> 00:00:50.729
The question to me isn't whether San Antonio wants professional classical music. I think the question is whether it can sustain it.

00:00:51.049 --> 00:02:00.980
I sat down with him to understand how it works. And what it would take for it to last. Let's get into it. My mom made me take piano lessons when I was 11, about 7 years old. I quit when I was around 11, unfortunately, but the seed was planted, and I didn't realize what would bloom until later on in life. Obviously, you know, I go through school at that time here in San Antonio, born and raised in San Antonio, and, you know, go to college for a few years. Didn't quite take to anything that I really, really liked. And being that my brother and some of his friends were firefighters, I ended up becoming a firefighter in, I think, 1995 when I was about 23 years old. And very shortly after that, after I graduated from the academy, I got interested in music again for some reason, classical music. So I started playing piano on my own again. I found a teacher and I started collecting recordings and reading about classical music and opera and all these things. And And then I found a teacher and I said, this is what I want to do. I want to learn how to conduct. Just out of the blue. Very, very late to the game, by the way. It was a pipe dream, I realize now.

00:02:01.459 --> 00:02:15.740
I started taking lessons with her. She recommended I go on a certain path. I went to SAC for 1 year. I went to UTSA for the remaining 3 years. I got my degree in music composition by the age of 30, at the same time being a firefighter.

00:02:15.740 --> 00:03:47.889
So that was sort of happened at the same time. And at that point, I still wanted to be a conductor. And I went to these workshops across the country and I applied to a few master degree programs where it's pretty tough to get into. So I obviously didn't get into that. But it was, I think mysterious things were kind of working their way around in my mind and a couple of my friends' mind. And we co-founded at the time the Chamber Orchestra of San Antonio in 2008. We started operating in 2012. And had our debut concert that season back at the Pearl Stable, the old Pearl Stable, the original Pearl Stable, I should say, in October of 2012. And that sort of started us down this path. Back in 2016, we formed what was Classical Music Institute sort of as a summer program, not as the name of our organization, but as a summer program. The model wasn't quite clear in my head yet, but it was something that had to happen in a big way in the performing arts in San Antonio. And that was sort of the seed that long ago, again, my mom had planted with piano lessons that finally, I believe, that's when it really started to take, started to bloom and take flower. From what I gathered, the budget for your first season of shows was maybe$25,000? It was around $45,000. $45,000? $45,000. Okay. Yeah, that was the 2012-2013 season. Yeah. All right. But in the most recent records, I thought, for the Orchestra San Antonio, budget was around$2 million more or less? $2.1. $2.1? Yes, that was fiscal year '23. We just finished fiscal year '24 at $2.4 million.

00:03:47.969 --> 00:04:52.230
Okay, and so how does that feel for you to start from those beginnings to now operating a budget like that? I know there's some more aspirations to come, but what is that distance like for you to be operating in here, you know, as a resident? Yeah, you know, we've been a resident company since the very beginning as Chamber Orchestra San Antonio and Classical Music Institute started in 2014. There's times where I stop and I kind of, I look at it, and we remember that you probably know a little bit of this, we went from about a $50,000 budget to about $300,000 fiscal year '22. So that's pretty good growth in 10 years, but then $300,000 to $3.3 million that we just passed a budget, that's 1,000% growth in 3 years. So it's very hard for me to sit and contemplate that because there's a lot of things going on that we have to do, continue to do, to build. So you always have— I always have one foot in the present and one foot in the future, and that's the way I have to sort of approach everything that we do.

00:04:52.790 --> 00:05:58.819
It's very nonlinear. Even though it is linear, it isn't at the same time. So I kind of look at it— I look at it that way. There's times when I sit back and go, wow, you know, We're receiving gifts now that match the budget that we had in'22, '21. And that to me is just unbelievable. And it's just testament to our mission and vision and our team and everything that we do. It's just really quite a blessing. Well, you mentioned something about, you know, what San Antonio needed, something that, you know, there was a seed that was planted in the arts. What was your assessment of that and maybe still is that maybe drives a lot of the mission and vision? Of the Orchestra San what, you Antonio, know, what was it that you noticed that San Antonio needed that it didn't necessarily have as it related to the performing arts? Well, I you think, know, as a chamber orchestra, we were at the time, 2012 through let's say 20— whatever it was, '16, '17, '18, trying to fill a gap. There wasn't a professional chamber orchestra that was consistently giving concerts throughout the season. And that was a gap that we were trying to fill at the time, plus some education things that we were doing.

00:05:59.379 --> 00:06:13.540
But we had a long-term growth plan at that time. And seeing that, going back to the education, the Classical Music Institute idea in 2016, we started with 30 students, I think.

00:06:14.019 --> 00:07:03.399
And seeing that at a ground level and seeing where I came from, not having the opportunity to study with these incredible musicians, I think that's the true gap that I realized at the time and that we all realized as a team that we had to sort of morph into. And it you wasn't, know, until this opportunity came about in '22, May of '22, that we were able to do that. The summer of '22, I should say, and expand very quickly. The growth plan at that point was a 10-year plan that became a 3-year plan, and then we had to readjust that plan to another different tenure plan. So, it was really very interesting at that time because now we're talking about forming and building an orchestra very quick— quicker than we thought. And then the education program became very, very real to us.

00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:15.560
How can we get into the community, into the fabric of the community, especially those places where they don't have access to what we do on a consistent basis?

00:07:15.560 --> 00:08:09.300
Like, grassroots consistent basis. And that's with an after-school program. That's what you know, given, given these students 400+ hours of training a year. And I think that's the true gap that we're trying to fill because that, that alone is going to build the arts in the future for San Antonio. That alone is going to you know, help, these, these children not only become musicians, that's not the goal, to become well-rounded citizens of the community, right? To become incredible teachers or doctors or lawyers or whatever they do, and they give back to the community. They come back to San Antonio and work and contribute to the arts and become board members and donors and ticket buyers and things of that sort. So I think that's— that was the ultimate goal, even though I didn't know it at the time, what we were doing at the time. Yeah. And so the consolidation of a 10-year plan into 3 years, how do you feel it's going? We're there.

00:08:10.899 --> 00:08:51.929
We hit our marks. We've hit our marks. The last— when this happened in summer of '22, we set up a 5-year plan, and the first 3 years have been hit. So now it's our next 5-year plan, our next 10-year plan, and we're actually building a 20-year plan. So that's, you know, the— it's happening, and it's a little scary, but at the same time, it's incredibly exciting because we know the potential is there in San Antonio and Bexar County and the surrounding communities. To support something that is going to help transform the city into a greater city. Well, and I don't think that that should just be glossed over. What do you feel like has contributed to that success to be able to execute and grow in such a short amount of time?

00:08:52.649 --> 00:09:15.230
I think that that's pretty important. It would be unwise for me to not acknowledge certain people. Because there's certain people in this community that believed in our mission and values. And they came to me in summer of '22, this incredible support.

00:09:15.870 --> 00:09:26.990
And that's at the time Judge Nelson Wolfe. You've got, you know, people like Dr. Alice Bieraslaw and Jeff Gault and Michael Amini in the Kronkowski Foundation.

00:09:27.399 --> 00:10:29.990
And H-E-B and the Carlos, the Malú and Carlos Alvarez family. There was people that came to us and believed in what we were doing. And I think it's because of that trust that has propelled us very quickly into what we're talking about right now. This morphing of this 10-year into a 3-year into, and now we're looking at a whole different type of 10-year plan now. At this point. So I would— that to me is just really, really hard not to say. Well, we'll get more into the forward-looking plan here in just a second, but for those of us who may not be aware, give us a little bit of the 101 on the operations, the programming, because I think that maybe what people might be most familiar with when you think orchestra is just perhaps the ticketed events at the Tobin Center. What else is, you know, all encompassed in the operations? Besides, as you say, the orchestra itself, which is concerts on the stage in the HEB Performance Hall, and of course, you know, throughout the community as we grow.

00:10:30.230 --> 00:11:50.179
We're in the pit for the opera and the ballet, especially The Nutcracker, and of course any type of big opera production. We have our chamber series, which is called Chamber Connections. You know, it's a way for people to experience classical music, chamber music, in a very intimate setting. Usually in a smaller setting like the Carlos Alvarez Studio Theater or some other places throughout the city. And of course, ASCEND, our year-round after-school program that is generously sponsored by the Malou and Carlos Alvarez family. And right now we're at Stafford Elementary serving about 60 to 70 students, and we're also just started at Jaffet Elementary in SAISD. Serving about 40 students right now. So that goes on from September through May, and they have their own concert series, so the students give their performances as well. And then we have the 210 Festival, which is a June summer festival that encompasses and sort of brings together everything that we do in, in a 3-week wonderful program of concerts and community events and partnerships. And things of that sort. It's just, it's amazing. So, you know, we, we're very proud to offer many things to the city and the surrounding area.

00:11:50.820 --> 00:12:13.059
How are those programs supported throughout San Antonio area schools? Like, what specific arm is that of the orchestra? And if I'm thinking about, you know, as you mentioned, it's arts programs that are perhaps the first that are cut in, in schools and public schools. Where is that funding then supported through the donations and fundraising in the orchestra? Yes. Where does that come from?

00:12:13.620 --> 00:13:13.240
That mainly comes from donors I've mentioned previously, like the Malou and Carlos Alvarez family generously underwrote the program for the next 3 years, the expansion of the program. They fell in love with what we were doing, what we're doing, and generously said, look, let's build this. Let's expand this. And they gave us one of our largest gifts so far to continue this. And that goes along with having an annual campaign that we every— at this point, every $5,000 supports one student to participate in our program all year round. You know, we had a campaign and that was very successful and that supports it as well. And then we have other entities that supported it, you know, Valero, HEB, Krenkovsky, Bexar County. There's different ways and different sources that, that, that do support at this point because it's They're tuition-free. not paying, they're not paying a single— each student, each family is not paying anything to be in this program.

00:13:13.879 --> 00:15:29.389
But I will say that at our last concert, you know, one of the grandparents came up to me of one of the new students at Jaffet and said that she could not believe that her granddaughter was going to be able to study an instrument from the 8th, from 4th grade on, you know, at this point. And that's, I think, the impact that we're going to have in the future, the transformational impact that will happen here over time. Well, I think that's really interesting in a time in which we see many headlines of our public school funding eroding here in the state of Texas, and a handful of school bonds, regardless of whether those were specifically for arts programs. They weren't necessarily passed. It's always hard to make a pitch to increase people's tax rates to be able to support, you know, anything. I get that. So that's going to be a difficult ask. But this seems like a potential kind of creative workaround for philanthropy in the nonprofit sector to perhaps in San Antonio offer these things that are in so many ways invaluable, as many of us would agree, but aren't necessarily institutionally funded, at least at this point in time. Yeah, I think, and I think that the way that we're structured in the sense of you're getting the dollar that you put in to support the ASCEND program also supports performance because the structure that we have is unlike any structure of any orchestra in the United States. It's because we're hiring, bringing on these incredible artists educators, right, that not only can educate at the highest level but perform at the highest level in an orchestra. So it's a duo thing that's really quite innovative when it comes to how an orchestra is formed in the United— pretty much all over the world, but especially in the United States. So it's very, you know, it's a wonderful thing for donors to see that, you know, not only are they able to see their daughters go to work in this ASCEND after-school program, but then they can also see that those same students are seeing those same teachers, are being able to see those same teachers as role models on stage performing at the highest level in an orchestra. So that's what's really, I think, quite unique about what we do.

00:15:29.710 --> 00:16:49.690
Well, I'd love to hear more about that, especially in San Antonio, as over the last few years we've seen instability in our arts programs is specifically with the symphony and as well the Philharmonic. I think recent headlines show that they had some shows postponed, not knowing exactly what that means or what's been said about that, but having shows postponed is not necessarily a great sign of health in the organization. And so talk to me a little bit as to why the Orchestra of San Antonio is structured the way that it is, like how, as you mentioned, it might be unique in the entirety of the United States. A lot of these institutions struggled during the pandemic in opening back up as people aren't perhaps purchasing season tickets and attending venues, concerts and venues in the same way. So how is Orchestra San Antonio, in your opinion, set up more so for sustainability and long-term viability? It's a very great question. Very good question. You know, it's the ticket sale model has sort of, you know, when it comes to that line of revenue, has changed since COVID And it was actually changing pre-COVID. We can go back to 2017, 2018, 2019, and we can look at numbers and kind of see what's been happening even up to the COVID point. So is it saturation, oversaturation? Is it— I don't know exactly what the answer is to that.

00:16:50.169 --> 00:17:07.880
What I do know is that the way we're structured, and I can only speak to that, We focus on 3 things that I think that are super important to answering what you just asked, and that is fiscal responsibility.

00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:43.220
So showing our donors and supporters that their dollars are doing what we say and what that they were going to give to, what they're doing. And now that's very important. And then, you know, you look at something like The key is service to the community. I was a firefighter for 20, around 26 years, and that's my goal in life is to serve this city in whatever capacity that I can. And kudos to all those firefighters right now that keep on doing the work and police officers because they're, it's sometimes a thankless job.

00:17:43.859 --> 00:20:17.079
And I think that service mentality, I'm not saying that it supersedes revenue and things of that sort, but I do feel that quite important in this day and age when it comes to an arts organization being looked at as viable and sustainable. We have various lines of, I guess you could say, of revenue sustainability, and those, those are continuing to grow as we, as we go forward. You know, what I feel very strongly about is not expanding too fast. It's especially when on the performance side. You know, there's a certain amount of audience, I think. In this day and age, we're pulled back and forth between many, many things. I think just running the marathon more than the sprint, especially for an arts organization, is super important. We have lofty goals, but those goals will be adjusted if we see that it's unsustainable. That's something that we feel very strongly about, especially at this point leading this organization. What I feel very strongly about is that it has to happen incrementally. It's a combination of education, performance, collaboration, community work, things of that sort that will someday, I think in the near future, We will become indispensable to the city and the county, and that's something as part of our master plan, I guess you could say. Well, and I think, you know, it's interesting where you started there talking about the service to the community because those aren't often things that maybe people will first and foremost see or recognize, which makes me think too that it adds just so much color to the performance if you do see those. The headline shows that you do have here at the Tobin Center, because I don't think people are very keen or familiar with what it is required both to recruit absolutely incredible musicians and get them on staff, and what that means to be a working musician as well. And so, you know, you see them and watch the show and you think of them as absolute superstars, and at the same time you may not think first and foremost that the you next, know, day or next week or whatever they're in a classroom or, you know, a band room, helping students the next generation pick up an instrument for the first time. Right. And on those lines too, I'd be curious to hear more. What are those inner workings like for, you know, recruitment as well as, you know, sustainability? What is it like for working musicians here in San Antonio from the perspective of the orchestra?

00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:37.980
Well, there's two two different, different ways that we, you know, the first thing is that our artist faculty, which is what I mentioned before, about being this incredible educator, music educator, and also performer. We have full-time— those are full-time employees at this point that we're starting to grow.

00:20:38.299 --> 00:22:10.500
People that are— there's a couple that are already in San Antonio that we've hired and people that are moving to San Antonio that we've hired. And then there's also orchestra players that we hire for the orchestra and maybe for some chamber work and things of that sort. So there's different ways that we do, I guess, bring on musicians to be a part of our organization. When it comes to the actual recruitment and hiring of these artist faculty, our Chief Programs Officer along with our music director, they're the ones that are going to, you know, make recommendations to me and the staff and say these are the these are the next people that we feel we need to bring on because we're going to expand. You know, I'm just saying we're going to expand in '26-'27 to, you know, another district, and we're going to hire 6 more artist faculty, you know, things of that sort. So I— we take those recommendations in hand and, and we decide on that based on budget and based on what we see we can do, you know, when it comes to the plan in the the strategic— strategic plan going forward. Well, let's, let's say more about that. You know, what's the next 10 years look like for Orchestra San Antonio? I've heard you say you're operating on a 30-year, or I've read in my research before you're operating on a 30-year master plan, but maybe that's changed. What does the future look like? I would say for the next 10 years that the goal is to have 40 to 50 artist faculty full-time here as part of the artist faculty part at the core of the orchestra.

00:22:10.990 --> 00:23:08.069
Serving approximately 1,000 students a year, anywhere between 800 to— actually, 800 to 1,500 students depends on capacity, of course. If you multiply, we usually like to take a little ratio and have it like 20 students to 1. So if you look at that, it's about 800 to 1,200 or so, something like that. Be in quite a few districts across the city, and it's working hand in hand with those districts too, and who needs the most help. Things of that sort. Having 8 to 10 classical music concerts or say orchestra performances a year here at the Tobin, but also doubling any doubling that we have outside of the Tobin in the community or surrounding communities of San Antonio. Continued collaborations with the opera and being in the pit for all the Ballet San Antonio's productions. That's part of the goal. Having, of course, a robust but sustainable staff. That supports everything that we're doing.

00:23:08.950 --> 00:24:29.500
So yeah, that's in a nutshell, that's what we want to do. It's, it's truly a transformational thing if you think about 1,000 to students, 1,200 you know, receiving 400 to 500 hours of training a year every year, and then also having this wonderful performance side of what we do. Well, and of course with that comes a larger budget. Yes. And so greater fundraising dollars, you know, etc., in the door is clear. That's perhaps a lag outcome of what is maybe a healthy and vibrant ecosystem that's supporting the arts. So if you could, you know, maybe this is a little bit speculative, but what would be signs to you of kind of like a healthy ecosystem, or what are the points of infrastructure that lead to that outcome? If you're thinking about that as the objective, that's the top line that you're trying to hit, what are some of the indicators of success best, and maybe you've spelled out, you know, that already, to kind of make that outcome reality? Numbers-wise, you're more specific? Well, you know, if I'm thinking— I like to think about things in like lead metrics. For me, are the actions that you can take or the things that you do, perhaps, you know, maybe there's kind of some ecosystem indicators of health. The outcome, the lag, is the result— the fundraising dollars in the door, the budget is supported, sustained, and, you know, you're not concerned about it. The next few years as well. So like, what are some of those things?

00:24:30.059 --> 00:27:23.750
And this again, it can you be, know, very speculative in some way, but I'm interested from your perspective, what needs to fall into place? What are things that you need to do? And again, it might be layered in many of your responses already, but what do you think leads to you that, know, success for the Orchestra San Antonio? It's an expansion of support, obviously. I mean, you, you can't over-rely on just The ones that have brought us along this far, it's been incredible support, don't get me wrong, but it— there's always a need for expansion when it comes to that. And that's why we're taking steps to— we just hired a Chief Impact Officer to help us develop, to have ideas outside of just what we do. An important aspect of what you're asking is that we don't inundate ourselves with too many arts people because having an outside view is supremely important in what we do. You know, having someone who appreciates music maybe, but then listens to what might be the '26-'27 programming and even given their input on why that does— why are we doing that? Asking the right questions. And I think if you have more people involved like that, when it comes to the tech sector, when it comes to the medical sector, when it comes to that, that have crossover, they have appreciation, or they know that teaching a student an instrument for 10 years is going to help them no matter what they do. I think having those voices involved and not being so isolated and just being in this artistic quote-unquote world, right, this artistic world, is going to tremendously impact the way we grow. And I think that's why I feel the potential is there. It's just a matter of opening the door to say, we're going to work with everybody to make this happen. It's not just arts. Well, that's kind of interesting. It's sort of like an inside-outside view if the common parallel is San Antonio, is how you're impacting the community. And I have a little bit of this my wife is a law professor at St. Mary's University, and I think they do a good job of this, of thinking about how they impact the community. But academia is definitely a place— you mentioned faculty as it sounds well, like there's a lot of overlaps— but you can get so kind of in the same weeds of just your particular sector, industry, or realm, you don't really think about the actual tangible, know, you physical, in many ways, impact that you have in the community that you're immediately around. And so I am curious Paul, as we start to wrap up here, you know, what would you recommend maybe for someone who wouldn't consider themselves initially inclined to classical music? What's, you know, some way to help them see the the valuable— value and the invaluable with the Orchestra San Antonio? What would you recommend that they sample first of the many things that y'all have going on throughout the year?

00:27:23.910 --> 00:28:09.109
I think classical music at times can become— or it can be viewed as very intimidating. They don't know. We always have an education aspect to everything that we do, even the, even the orchestra concerts, the chamber concerts, things of that sort. We have people talking about them, introducing the pieces, things. And I know that's being done, I know that happens, but it's a very intimate and relaxed atmosphere, even at a large event, even versus our Chamber Connections type of event. So I do think there's entry points at various things that we do. I would say right now in the short term, I think Chamber Connections is a very good entry point to what we do. And, you know, we have a concert coming up on December 11th here at the Carlos Alvarez that's Baroque Christmas music.

00:28:09.430 --> 00:28:48.930
Everybody loves Christmas music. You know, let's, let's throw that in there. I would say that we don't present concerts in the typical way. It's always— there's a production aspect to it. You go to our orchestra concert, you have a video screen, close-ups of the musicians. It's being produced live at the time that you're seeing it. Same thing, you know, comes with our Chamber Connections. There's, you know, we work with 100A, which is a local, which is the Tobin resident theater company, and we have production value in what we do. You know, whether it's something alluding to Winston Churchill in our first production or something Christmas-oriented in the next production.

00:28:50.349 --> 00:32:26.589
One of— I guess what I'm really proud of is that some of our most ardent supporters are non-classical music listeners. And that goes back again to education. And if you feel strongly, if you're out there and you feel strongly that music education is important to build infrastructure and an incredible foundational base for San Antonio and the future of San Antonio, that's an entry point to support us and to follow what we do. That alone. So it's not only the performance side because sometimes they contribute to the education side and they become a fan of classical music after that. And I have instances of that, examples of that. So I would say there's various entry points that we offer. Do you feel like your aspirations originally to become a conductor somehow relate and translate to now your skill set as an executive? For the orchestra? I don't know, maybe. Since I never conducted, I don't quite know the answer to that, but it's leading an incredible group of people that without their input, this wouldn't be possible. You know, it's really, it's teamwork. It's not, it's, that's what it's about. And that's where also, you know, with these young children, these young students that are in our ASCEND program, it's about teaching them valuable, I guess you could say valuable life lessons when it comes teamwork, just being able to know that you have to practice something hard to be— to do well in it. You know, I have to practice this every day just to lead an organization like this, and I think that's important. So yeah, let's talk very tactically about the orchestra's operations today, particularly how musicians are employed. I know we touched on that in, in brief, but I would love for clarification. How a season is structured, how performances are structured along those lines. And of course, we talked about programming, but, you know, how the orchestra comes together, you know, on an individual basis, on an employment basis across the year. Well, you know, it's, uh, the last 3 years have— we've been through some exponential growth, right? So we're tailoring each season depending on continued growth and what we see as sustainability as well, obviously. So something to the effect of, I can give you you know, the, the details more for this season. We say to ourselves, okay, we're going to be in the opera pit for 2 productions, we're going to be in the ballet for 1 production, we're going to have 3 orchestra concerts, we're going to have 4 chamber concerts, and we're going to have a festival with 4 to 5 chamber concerts also in the summer. So we look at that prior to each season. Let's just say that was to continue for a few seasons, and we engage artists for the entire season based on where they're going to be placed in those productions. So, you know, it varies from year to year and from production to production because we might be using an orchestra of 50, we might be using an orchestra of 60 or 70. So it just depends on what we're doing at the time. And then you look at our chamber series, you know, it can go all the way down to 10 to 15 players. Or 4 players, you know, so it really just depends on each season and production as we go forward. Well, and if you could then maybe say more about the structure of the employment of those musicians. Again, something we talked on, there's full-time faculty, I think was maybe the label that you mentioned. I think you gave some specific figures, but, you know, what does that look like? Are they, you know, how many are full-time salaried and playing? How many are part-time? You know, and contracted essentially throughout this season.

00:32:26.910 --> 00:32:49.150
What does that ratio look like roughly? I would say right now you're looking at about 9 full-time, what we call artist faculty. It's important to put the artist in front of faculty because, as I might have mentioned last time, is that, you know, we not only search for those who have an incredible pedigree for teaching, but as well as for performing.

00:32:49.720 --> 00:33:26.690
So it's a double duty in a sense. So those that we do hire on a full-time basis, and when I say full-time, I mean salaried and with benefits. And you know, that they're responsible for teaching in the afterschool program, the ASCEND program that we have, and also in every orchestra production that we do throughout the year, including opera and the collaborations. So it's based on that model. Now we're very competitive. When it comes to— when you look at it on a national scale, you know you know what, that San Antonio is a little bit— the dollar goes a little bit farther here than most you other, know, cities, or let's say top 20 cities in the U.S.

00:33:27.250 --> 00:34:11.389
And we look at all the data every year. We adjust when we need to adjust, and we compensate them very well when it comes to San Antonio dollars on a full-time basis. When it comes to our independent contractors, They're also compensated very well because we look at— we get data from other orchestras when they pay per service throughout the United States, and we make sure that we're at least at that level or above that level. And of course, based on where San Antonio is in that model, obviously, as well. So we take care of people as a whole throughout. So, okay, the, the part-time, do you get paid per performance essentially? Yeah, you know, what they call is usually when you're an independent contractor, when it comes to what we do, is per service.

00:34:11.710 --> 00:35:41.679
So you have so many rehearsals and you have so many performances, you have travel fees, you have reimbursements when it comes to travel, hotel, things like the per diem, things of that sort that come into effect when you hire from outside San Antonio. Now we do hire independent contractors in San Antonio as well, and they're obviously paid the same as everybody else, but without the travel reimbursements and things like that. And so what's the intention behind this structuring an organization? Is it purely a matter of constraints, or is it strategic? As far as, you know, I mean, 9 full-time faculty, artists, musicians, or artist faculty, and then working part-time, is that merely a matter of, you know, what the budget is, constraints in that capacity? Because what I'm asking is as well, like, what is the aspiration, right? And you'll know better than I, but, uh, full-scale symphony is perhaps, what, 110 musicians on a stage? Depends, depends on the city, depends on the orchestra, but it can range anywhere from 50 to 60 to around 100. Okay, well, I mean, with, with that in mind, I guess, and as it relates to the employment of musicians, is what's the aspiration? Is that the type of operation or organization that we're hoping to sustain in San Antonio, or? Yeah, I think we're going to measure slowly and see what happens as we go through a season, and then after a season, and before the next budget year, and thinking, taking things into consideration.

00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:59.230
We're going to scale. We're going to see what is working, what is not working. Right now, our model lends flexibility to that. The goal is by 2031 is to have 40 to 50 full-time artist faculty that would also serve as the core of the orchestra.

00:36:00.750 --> 00:36:08.230
Obviously, when you have performances that require a bigger orchestra, then we then we will, will make that happen. But that is the ultimate goal.

00:36:08.230 --> 00:36:11.550
know, You my internal goal is around 50 by 2031.

00:36:12.030 --> 00:36:23.510
And I think that's a very nice number for San Antonio at this point. And also it lends such a dynamic— think of the possibilities that happen when it comes to the after-school program.

00:36:24.380 --> 00:37:12.429
When you're able to bring 1,000 to 1,500 kids into this program on a daily and weekend basis with these 50 artist faculty. It's not just the performance goal. Education is always entwined— intertwined, I should say, like a Mobius strip. So, you know, you're always— we're always looking at the two facets every time that we do anything. And are there any other cities or organizations that perhaps you look to, you know, aspirationally or something? I mean, of course we want to make the Orchestra of San Antonio uniquely San Antonio and fit for our community, but is there anything that you look at in different models, success stories across the country, across Texas, as things that you would hope San Antonio meets or exceeds that sort of bar or that sort of quality and presence in a community?

00:37:12.510 --> 00:38:38.389
You know, our Chief Programs Officer Daniela Diaz and our Music Director Leonardo Pineda have done a lot of research on this, you know, pass this information on to, to me. As far as we know, this model doesn't exist in the United States where, you know, you have this teaching artist, for lack of a better term, right, to sort of combine daily after-school work with the performance aspect of what we do. Doesn't quite exist in this country. It might, but I think at the level that we're striving for It doesn't. So I think San Antonio, being like what you said San Antonio is, should take great pride in what we're working to accomplish over the next decade, or what we've already accomplished and what we're going to accomplish over the next decade or so, because this is truly something that San Antonio can call its own. You know, like, this is something to be like shouting from the hilltops type of a thing, and that's how important I think, and transformational it will be for the city. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, maybe beyond you 2031, know, I'm just thinking about the part-time workers' experience because, of course, they must have other, you know, occupations or gigs that, that they need to sustain. What have you found in their experience is, I don't know, particularly rewarding about working with the orchestra or particularly challenging thus far, you know, from the part-time capacity?

00:38:38.949 --> 00:40:08.829
Is it difficult to recruit? What kind of body of musicians do you feel like you're picking from or working with? Are they all San Antonio based or? I would say right now that the core of 60 that we work with on a consistent basis, a third are from San Antonio or the local area. I would say San Antonio surrounding areas. The rest of them are contracted from outside of San Antonio. We're very clear about who we are, what we're doing to these musicians that come in from outside of San Antonio. What we value the most is taking care of our musicians, and they know that. So everything that we do, everything that we feel about artistic excellence, and it's the care, the transparency of our musicians, our contracted musicians especially, right, is that we do everything around that. So I, I think that when they come here, they have just an amazing time. They love San Antonio. If we had the budget today, we would have our 50 artist faculty already. That's how many people are interested in coming here and moving here, besides the ones that we employ from here already. So it's just, I think what's being accomplished here as an organization to the service of the city is being felt by not just people that are directly, you know, the students, let's say, being directly having that direct contact with our artist faculty, but from those who are coming from outside and from even the interior of San Antonio having this experience with us.

00:40:09.789 --> 00:40:17.469
And do you think there's a day— I mean, I know you mentioned the aspirational, uh, I think 2031 goal. That's sort of our internal goal. Yeah, we'll see.

00:40:17.869 --> 00:40:49.460
Like I said, that's always adjustable. But yeah, hopefully 2028. We'll see what happens. The sooner the better. Do you feel like there's a day when San Antonio has it, you know, a consistent, sustainable Symphony with 100, 110 members on the stage? First of all, that's never happened in the history of San Antonio. So, uh, I think the most that was ever contracted here was maybe in the mid-'70s. Maybe when you go back to, let's say, the '30s and the '40s, late '30s, '39, you know, into the— you might have had a bigger orchestra. But that's a huge orchestra. You've got to understand, like, not many even across the world have that number.

00:40:50.019 --> 00:41:19.449
I feel that San Antonio is a unique city as you well know, even within the top 10 cities. We have an incredible amount of population, but yet I want to say our media size or something like that is what, in the top— not even in the top 30 or within the top 25 or something like that. So it's a different type of a city, right? And going to your podcast name, I think that a goal of 50 is perfect right now for San Antonio.

00:41:19.860 --> 00:42:51.980
It's going to take time to do what we're doing. It's going to take time to not only appeal to the classical music aficionados and connoisseurs in the area, but to build the future classical connoisseurs of San Antonio. That's— it's going to take a you know, because, generation, you know, we're going into communities that have never had access on a consistent basis, and we're helping create the next generation of people who are going to support that. 20, 30 years down the road, is 100 orchestra members possible? Of course, anything's possible. But we're looking at it very strategically right now, seeing where San Antonio was, is, and will be, and we're building on that. And that— I think that's the most important thing for us right now. Absolutely. And then a final one for you. My understanding that the Orchestra of San Antonio operates currently as a non-union organization. Is this a deliberate or intentional choice in any sort of or, regard, you know, with the full-time artist faculty, is that something that you'd be open to, or what is the consideration around this structure or lack thereof with the Orchestra of San Antonio? We want to remain flexible, artistically responsive, and mission-driven at our current stage of growth. Our structure supports innovation, it supports collaboration and sustainability, and it also maintains high artistic standards.

00:42:55.179 --> 00:43:16.940
So we— I respect— we respect union organizations, right? But it's— and the important role they play, of course, in the orchestra field. We know the history of that. But our model, it reflects the size, the scope, and our you vision, know, goals at this time. And whether it happens in the future or not, I don't know the answer to that.

00:43:17.980 --> 00:43:44.070
As you ask, I, you know, it's something that could happen, it's something that could not happen. So I think that's where I always like to keep my mind, that I'm open to anything, we're open to anything, but we're also going to be very strategic because sustainability is, is where we're at right now. And as you've seen over the last 30 years, that has not been where it's at, and that's an issue.

00:43:44.869 --> 00:43:48.949
So I want to make sure that we keep on that road of sustainability.

00:43:52.550 --> 00:44:03.510
All right, y'all, that was Paul Montalvo, president and CEO of the Orchestra San Antonio. 50 full-time artist faculty by 2031. 1,000 students learning tuition-free classical music.

00:44:04.099 --> 00:44:48.769
That's the vision. Whether this model can deliver what others couldn't, we aren't sure yet. But someone is building something different here, and I think that might be worth our attention. You can learn more and see upcoming performances at theorchestrasa.org. This episode of Big City Small Town was made possible with support from Geekdom and Weston Urban. We're grateful for their continued investment in San Antonio and this region. At Big City Small Town, we publish two newsletters every single week, My San Antonio Something, and Bob Rivard's Monday Musings. If you want to stay connected to what's happening in this city, be sure to sign up for free at bigcitysmalltown.com or check for a link in the description below. Thanks for listening to Big City Small Town. I'm Corey Ames. We'll see you next time.