123. San Antonio’s Legal Lifeline: How SALSA Fights for Access to Justice

Bob Rivard [00:00:03]:
Our program today is a close-up look at SALSA, the San Antonio Legal Services Association, a core of attorney volunteers coordinated by a small team of full time professionals, that together provide free civil legal services to those with limited means and those who are vulnerable or at risk. In San Antonio, that is literally hundreds of thousands of people who cannot afford good legal representation. Our guests today are Sarah Dingavan, the outgoing CEO of salsa, who is leaving the organization after eight years. Sarah came to San Antonio from Alabama after joining the US air force right out of law school and to serve as an attorney in the Judge Advocate General Corps. Sarah, welcome to Big City Small Town. We're gonna wanna hear more about your future plans in addition to all the other ground we hope to cover today. Sarah is joined today by her colleague and fellow attorney, Gregory Zlotnick, a salsa board member and faculty member of Saint Mary's University's School of Law. At the university, Greg also serves as the supervising attorney for the Housing Rights Project at the Center for Legal and Social Justice.

Bob Rivard [00:01:09]:
Greg, welcome to Big City Small Town.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:01:11]:
Thanks so much for the invitation.

Bob Rivard [00:01:13]:
So the first question for every nonprofit and community group these days is how are you doing? How is salsa doing? Are are events in Washington, decisions in Washington affecting salsa directly? We're gonna get right into that. But first, Sarah and Greg, would you tell our audience a little bit about yourselves and what brought you to San Antonio and and the work you're doing here?

Speaker C [00:01:35]:
Sure. So, I moved to San Antonio, in 2013, and I was still on active duty. And my husband grew up in San Antonio, so this was a home a forced homecoming when the military tells you to move, but a homecoming for him. And, we both found ourselves leaving active active duty, during one of our assignments here and affirmatively chose to stay. He often remarked about just how much the city had changed since he left at 18. So he'd been gone, you know, I guess, almost, I guess, fifteen years when he when the air force sent him back. And, he was really, at a point in his life, I think, where he recognized what a beautiful place this was, having left it and, returned. And, we had had a our first child right about the time that I separated from active duty, so having grandparents in town certainly made that a little bit easier of a decision.

Speaker C [00:02:35]:
Isn't it? Yeah.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:02:37]:
Greg, how about you? Yeah. I also moved to San Antonio in 2013. I was born in Upstate New York, met my wife, who's a San Antonio native in Washington, DC, while we both were in school. We started dating. She said, no. I think this is going pretty well, but I need you to know that I'm moving back to Texas, and I'm moving back to San Antonio someday. And it's not that I never said never when I went to Texas. It's just that I hadn't thought about it.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:03:01]:
And I had a chance to visit. Her family was nothing but warm and welcoming to me, to me and to my whole extended family. My folks have since moved down here too. And so I wasn't born here, but as the saying goes, got here about as soon as I could. Could. My first job out of law school was with the federal government up in Fort Worth. And then in 2013, I moved down here and started at Saint Mary's in 2014. Thrilled to be a part of this community.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:03:25]:
My wife has roots here. She grew up on San Antonio South Side. We feel really fortunate to raise both of our kids here, with, as Sarah mentioned, having so much family around and to be in a community where they have a lot of, opportunities both for their own growth and flourishing. But we have a chance to really engage with the community around us and have a

Bob Rivard [00:03:44]:
career of meaning. Well, those those are great, stories. We hear from so many people that have come to San Antonio either through marriage or the military, and we're fortunate to have you both. So, Sarah, I think you have, your organization has the best acronym in the city, salsa, and yet I would, hazard a guess that most of our audience is not very familiar with the organization or the work the important work they do. So tell us a little bit about, Salsa, its origins

Speaker C [00:04:12]:
Sure.

Bob Rivard [00:04:12]:
And, and then what you what you guys are focused on.

Speaker C [00:04:16]:
So, Salsa, came of age during the pandemic, which is part of the reason that, not many people have heard about us. It would our predecessor organization, the community justice program, was a subsidiary of the San Antonio Bar Association. And for a long time, there were small scale volunteer projects that were done under the bar. And in 2018, the bar association recognized that in order to expand the footprint of free legal services in San Antonio, it was necessary for the organization to begin to grow. And, under the leadership of our first board chair, Robert Sosa, we began to to look into ways to, establish ourselves as an independent organization. And we were preparing for our kickoff event in mid March twenty twenty, when the world changed, and, we, immediately began building projects and programs that were responsive to the unique legal needs that were cropping up during the pandemic. One example of that is our small state help desk because it still exists today. It's a partnership with the probate courts, where our volunteer lawyers are providing critical services to families who have lost a loved one and don't know how to navigate the court system.

Speaker C [00:05:37]:
The probate court, obviously, the people who are encountering it are in the middle of a grieving process. So you're entering it already in a disadvantage. And being able to navigate the complexities of that process without a lawyer is really hard. So the role of these volunteers is to meet people where they are, help kind of navigate the situation in which they find themselves and help blaze a path forward, by looking at their exact circumstances and letting them know what their options are. And that's a pretty good example of the type of work that Salsa volunteers are doing on a daily basis.

Bob Rivard [00:06:11]:
Well, so many other things happened during the pandemic with massive job loss, income loss, a worsening, housing situation became a full blown crisis. Evictions needed became a a major issue for many families. And until until, you know, local entities began to receive stimulus funds much later to, address some of those issues, I would imagine that you guys were pretty busy on those fronts too.

Speaker C [00:06:40]:
Yes. One of our, first office locations was at Haven Probes Resource Center. So, we saw what was happening day in and day out, and then it's the pandemic, not just the, the people who are becoming unhoused because of, income loss, but also the people who are fearful that they were gonna be displaced with, difficult health issues that made them particularly vulnerable. And, the folks who were, trying to navigate accessing benefits for the first time even though, they weren't able to go in person to locations to be able to do that. There were just so many barriers that arose, and we were able to see that first firsthand definitely at our office at Haven. And we were working collaboratively with other legal aid providers, including, the clinic that Greg operates, and and Texas Rio Grande legal aid. There were just, all the legal providers around the city were trying to come together and really change the way we delivered services, because the, nuances of providing services in the midst of a public health crisis were different than any of our organizations had ever encountered before and required a lot of innovation. A lot of use of technology, which, as you know, is not always the easiest for, folks without access to technology.

Speaker C [00:08:00]:
So balancing the need to change change the way we're delivering services with the need to make sure that we're not affirmatively blocking people from access, because of, the technological barriers and language barriers that exist when you're, creating, you know, remote opportunities for engagement.

Bob Rivard [00:08:18]:
It's remarkable that we don't even talk about the digital divide anymore, although those stimulus dollars have, by and large, dried dried up and and the the sort of, assistance people were getting is proving fleeting in the end. Greg, talk a little bit about, the housing crisis post pandemic. All the focus these days is on international trade and people's four zero one k's and how the markets are doing and tariffs, but, all of the, issues that were laid bare during the pandemic are still there. And, people are back at work. You know, we're not, shut down anymore. But, the housing crisis is very real, not just here, but in almost every major community in the in the country.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:09:01]:
Yeah. Gladly. You know, here in San Antonio, we saw market rents go up, somewhere north of 20% from pre pandemic rates. They've since stabilized in the last year or so, but you're talking about you paying, you know, one out of every $5 more if you're a renter here in Texas and here in San Antonio. You know, that's about 40% of our population. That's on the rental side of things. You're talking about a part of our community that saw during the pandemic unprecedented interventions when it came to rental assistance. You know, some of the assistance that you mentioned earlier, it was really well delivered in San Antonio.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:09:41]:
San Antonio was actually held up as a model around the country, for getting effective, time effective rental assistance out the door, in a positive, some way. That kept renters housed, that made landlords whole, it helped folks avoid the worst of the eviction process. The vast, vast majority of that funding has since dried up. And so, now we're in a position where a lot of those forces are still impacting folks who are renting, you know, job instability, regular hours, the fact that, you know, today, as it has been for many decades, most Americans are a paycheck or two away, from really falling behind. And when you're renting, you have fewer protections. And when you're renting in Texas, you have fewer protections still than renters in other parts of this country. So that's just one part of the housing market. Of course, you've got the homeownership side of things too.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:10:33]:
40% of folks are renting. The other three out of five are are owning a home or live in a home that's owned by someone in the family. And there you had you see the increase in mortgage rates making it more difficult for folks to enter into homeownership. You see it locking people into place so that fewer homes are on the market. And you see the same economic forces that create precarity when it comes to making payments affect folks who have to pay their mortgage on time, just like it affects folks who have to pay rental assistance on time. Now, I would say that here in San Antonio, you know, community leaders have taken as proactive approach as possible. Voters approved the affordable housing bond in 2022, and those projects are starting to come online. You know, there's groundbreakings on everything from permanent supportive housing, to more traditional affordable housing, mixed use developments, and that's starting to make a dent.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:11:24]:
But the thing about groundbreakings is that you can't live in the ditch and the hole. You gotta live in the actual finished product. So that does take some time to come online. Further, I know the city and community leaders have come together for the strategic housing implementation plan, the SHIP. And while I don't wanna get too far deep into alphabet soup, plans like that, the ability to look more than just six months ahead of time is really making an impact. However, that sort of foresight is helpful in the long term. It should help San Antonio continue to be a relatively affordable place to live, at least compared to other cities. However, it does vary little for folks who are headed to eviction court on a regular basis, and that's something we see in our our clinic and something that Salsa has seen through its work as well, where there is a lot of immediate and acute need to just stabilize housing, whether it's to catch up on rent or to try to negotiate a dignified time frame for folks to move out without all of their belongings being put out on the street.

Bob Rivard [00:12:19]:
You know, both the ship and the housing bond are probably gonna be seen, already are seen as two of the most successful initiatives under mayor Ron Nirenberg and the city councils that, that served during his eight year tenure. Would your advice be to the next mayor and city council, both of you, please continue what's been started or accelerate what's been started or are there best practices that you're seeing in other cities and states that we should be adopting and layering on top of what we're already doing?

Gregory Zlotnick [00:12:50]:
Yeah. Speaking personally, I would say that those are policies that should be expanded, and continued, past the time of the bond and the time when it comes time for a new initiative to come online, I think that the new council, a new mayor, whoever they should be, should consider very strongly, leading with that. If San Antonio isn't an affordable place to live, then it will lose, its vibrancy, it'll lose its competitiveness with not only other cities here in Texas, but across the country. And making those sorts of targeted investments, which we can afford to do. I know that traditionally, both in Texas and and here in San Antonio specifically, making those sorts of long term investments haven't come easily. It's hard to build policy consensus of all the bonds that were, you know, on the ballot in 2022. The affordable housing bond was the one that had the smallest margin of victory. So I understand there's some headwinds here, but it really benefits all San Antonians to make those long term investments because otherwise, we need to make we will have to make tail end investments in triage, in acute legal aid services, and in all the other associated social services that come, when folks experience housing loss, when they experience eviction, when they experience foreclosure.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:14:07]:
Evictions, foreclosures, displacement are all associated with negative health health incomes, with negative educational incomes, with increased mortality. So while, you know, I don't wear a stethoscope, I don't wear a lab coat, certainly, you do not want me, doing any sort of medical analysis. There there are real life health impacts to legal needs that can be addressed earlier on, and the best time to address them is at the policy level on a proactive basis.

Speaker C [00:14:32]:
Yeah. I think one of the things that Greg hit on that's that we see time and time again is there are opportunities for preventative work that would really prevent us from having to deal with the insanely cost significant remediation efforts that have to go on. And one really great example of this, the city has a roof repair program that they have been trying to help families stay housed to avoid the consequences that Greg just referenced. But a lot of those families, in order to participate, they need clear title to the house. They need to be able to show that they are, in fact, the owner of the house. Same thing goes when you're trying to get, a loan to make a a fix outside of this program. And when you can't show clear title, you then can't have access to the funds to ensure habitability. And we've got a lot of families who find themselves not just having one layer of legal problems, but having multiple generations where no legal steps have been taken to transfer ownership.

Speaker C [00:15:36]:
And the preventative work that has to be done is so complex and so problematic that there are actually instances where it can't be fixed. And there are so many, legal opportunities that exist for working with communities, to do this kind of preventative work. And one clinic that that SALSA operates is in partnership with the Mexican American Unity Council and, the families that they serve through their Homestead Preservation Project. And we work with, one of the clinical programs at St. Mary's as as a partner as well, with professor Fajardo. And, her students have done a great job of, working with salsa volunteers and the mock staff to provide transfer on death deeds. Transfer on death deeds are one example of a recent legal tool that was invented to try and simplify the problem. We, you know

Bob Rivard [00:16:28]:
Is it the equivalent of a will?

Speaker C [00:16:30]:
It's well, it's different than a will because it only impacts the property. Right? So you say, you know, Greg, my house at 123 Main Street, the own the interest that I have in it at the time of my death, I wanna convey it to my sister. And you execute that simple document, and it covers the house. And, no, it's not the same as a will, but for a family whose largest single asset is that family home, ensuring the proper legal transfer of that family home is one of the most important things that you can do for them. And so the issue that we face often is finding the legal remedy that's the best possible solution. Is it a comprehensive package that includes all their personal belongings and everything else that a will would offer? No. But for a lot of families, it's the most important item we can give them, and it could prevent that remediation issue years down the road where you haven't, insured proper transfer of property.

Bob Rivard [00:17:28]:
So we have 40% of our, who knows what percentage of our population that is working class and, a couple of paychecks away from trouble, Greg, like you said. And the vast majority of them don't have a relationship with a lawyer and can't afford a private leave legal representation. So is the entire system built? Is it all predicated on you being able to recruit pro bono attorneys out of private practice to address these issues? And are you successfully doing that at a at scale?

Speaker C [00:18:00]:
Yeah. So let's let's, I guess, start first with the need because that's that's the important factor. Right? So the Legal Services Corporation, which is the biggest single funder of legal aid across the country and salsa is not an LSC funds recipient, but most of your

Bob Rivard [00:18:13]:
That's more acronyms than we can process, Sarah.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:18:16]:
No.

Speaker C [00:18:16]:
I'm sorry.

Bob Rivard [00:18:16]:
The the legal services

Speaker C [00:18:18]:
services corporation.

Bob Rivard [00:18:19]:
Is that a federal

Speaker C [00:18:20]:
Federal entity Okay. That funds what we, tend to think of as our traditional staff driven legal aid organizations.

Bob Rivard [00:18:26]:
Okay.

Speaker C [00:18:26]:
Our Our local legal aid organization is Texas Rio Grande Legal Aid. They are not just in San Antonio. They are I think they're the second biggest legal aid in the country. Yeah. They go all the way to El Paso, the Valley, Austin. I mean, their footprint is just And

Bob Rivard [00:18:40]:
what do they do that differently in the South?

Speaker C [00:18:43]:
So they, have staff who provide services, and their attorneys and paralegals and support staff are absolutely incredible lawyers who are providing support for incredibly complex civil cases, and I think this is a really good example of where that need gap comes in. So ninety two percent of people with a civil legal need according to the legal services corporation get limited or no access to legal services. So, I mean, that's a huge number.

Bob Rivard [00:19:13]:
Right? Almost everyone.

Speaker C [00:19:15]:
So what happens is that, when you're somebody who has a, simple legal problem, the legal services that are available likely aren't going to assist you because they're dedicated to those more complex legal issues. So you've got people who are just trying to access basic legal information who really don't have many places to turn. And what organizations like SALSA do, pro bono legal services organizations, is we try and identify the places where we can have a broad impact on specific items. So, one example of that, is and and just, I guess, real quick, having a broad impact on these items involves partnership. Partnership is absolutely critical to impactful work, especially in a city like San Antonio where the need is just huge. So one organization that we have been working with in partnership to tackle specific legal issues is Morgan's Multi Assistant Center. So part of the Morgan's Wonderland

Bob Rivard [00:20:20]:
complex Northeast San Antonio?

Speaker C [00:20:21]:
Exactly. So the Multi Assistant Center, has been, operating for just over two years. And, Greg and I, were part of the legal home committee, which was created, I think, back in 2017 in anticipation of the rollout of Morgan's Mac. And one of the big discussion topics that the committee handled was how do we provide meaningful legal services to the individuals with disabilities who are going to come and seek services at Morgan's. And

Bob Rivard [00:20:52]:
This is children and adults?

Speaker C [00:20:53]:
So this is this is any individual with disabilities, is eligible to apply to become a MAC member.

Bob Rivard [00:20:59]:
Okay.

Speaker C [00:21:00]:
And those individuals are assigned to a navigator who helps them access social, medical, dental, and because of SALSA legal services. And so our organization is the entity that is on campus at the MAC, and, we are operating legal advice clinics that are, catering to the needs of the population that accesses Morgans. And they have specific legal needs, specific civil legal needs, but they are also people with the same legal needs as everybody else out in the community. So we tend to see, guardianship questions, access to Social Security, specifically Social Security, our SSI and SSDI benefits. And then we also, like many other people, have family law questions that come up. The nuanced, issues questions that come up. The nuanced, issues that arise when you have a individual with a disability as part of your family. You need to make a lot of intentional decisions so that they don't lose access to federal benefits because they have too much income in their bank account.

Speaker C [00:22:06]:
And the relative complexity of that work, means that, if the person who is accessing the services doesn't recognize that they could forfeit their benefits, you know, completely unknown to them and then receive a letter in the mail that says you're no longer drawing Social Security even though they absolutely should be drawing Social Security. And what an organization like salsa can bring to the table is the ability for a doctor who's, you know, has a patient who said, I don't I don't know I was eligible for benefits. They can then send them over to SALSA where our attorneys can look at the paperwork, see what misstep they may have taken, and help work with them to correct it.

Bob Rivard [00:22:50]:
That that's important work. Do you have, I know the Salsa staff itself is not large. Do you have enough attorneys in San Antonio that are offering their services pro bono to be able to effectively execute your mission?

Speaker C [00:23:05]:
So we have a really great core group of volunteers that have helped us build out this project over the last two years. Mhmm. And, the San Antonio Bar Association's probate, guardianship, and estate group has been one of our best partners, by supplying, volunteers who really understand the mission and care about the work that we're doing. But, the ability for us to continue to offer these services going forward is predicated on having a larger pool of volunteers who can come to the table and provide these services.

Bob Rivard [00:23:37]:
Are we talking dozens, hundreds, thousands of attorneys?

Speaker C [00:23:39]:
So at last count, we have about 7,000 attorneys in San Antonio.

Bob Rivard [00:23:43]:
Okay.

Speaker C [00:23:44]:
And, every year, we have between 305 active volunteers. So there's room for

Bob Rivard [00:23:51]:
Time to time to call out the lawyers here, isn't it, and take

Gregory Zlotnick [00:23:54]:
time? Sarah's being polite.

Bob Rivard [00:23:57]:
The best priority.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:23:58]:
Prior to teaching, I supervised the pro bono activities of our law students at the law school. And, you know, part of what I loved about that job was hoping to expose and maybe even instill a sense of the lawyer's commitment to the common good and to pro bono service, which is one of the aspirations of our professions. We're the only ones who get to do this. There's exceptions to that. We'll, you know, we won't get into the minutiae of that. But, we essentially have a monopoly on the practice of law as attorneys. And, with that comes a social responsibility. And we have seen unbelievable work over the years, and something that, you know, Sarah specifically deserves credit for is catalyzing and mobilizing that core cadre of volunteers in our community to engage on a variety of projects, under difficult circumstances, including but not limited to a global pandemic.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:24:51]:
And yet there's a lot of room for growth and there's an opportunity to reach get much closer to some sort of tipping point of active engagement to meet these unmet legal needs. For better or for worse in San Antonio, as you mentioned, we have intergenerational poverty that has been difficult to dislodge and to move down. That may not be every attorney's calling to address those root causes, right? To engage on policy, to get involved there. Though, I would say as a parenthetical, we're well positioned to jump in on that with our legal training. However, we do have the opportunity, and it really is an opportunity, to engage on some of those expressions, to address some of those symptoms that come up there, and to try to alleviate not just the momentary challenges and stresses that clients present themselves with at a clinic, at the MAC, or at eviction court, but to start to move upstream as well. And, I think the feedback from volunteers that we hear, whether it's a law student, a new newly licensed attorney, a veteran attorney, a senior attorney, is the meaning and reward that comes with the engagement with a client to be able to spend a little bit of their time and maybe just a fraction of their expertise to really unlock a problem. Exactly.

Speaker C [00:26:07]:
And solve a problem.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:26:08]:
Yeah. Right. I mean,

Speaker C [00:26:08]:
I think that's the that's the feedback that we get routinely is I had no idea that my skills could impact somebody this way. And I think that's that's really the call to action for our lawyers in town is, you know, there have been opportunities that have been created for you. There are staff that exist to support you. All you have to do is show up.

Bob Rivard [00:26:28]:
Well, I think it's it's important to, also realize that you're not just offering legal assistance and solutions, but people that are already hard pressed in life economically and otherwise, they're they're traumatized when the legal system gobbles them up and they have no idea how to navigate it, and it just adds to the stress and expense in every sense of the word to their lives. And so it can make a huge difference to address the symptoms, even if you're not pulling them out of their broader situation, but at least you're addressing their emergency in a prescriptive way.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:27:03]:
Oh, absolutely. It's a system that fundamentally is designed to be navigated with counsel, or, you know, an advocate if you're in a courtroom setting. And yet, across the country, three out of four civil cases involve at least one party that has no attorney at all. And those are just the cases that make it to court. That's not to say of other disputes or challenges or navigating, you know, public benefits applications or a transfer of property, you know, protecting and building generational wealth. When Sarah was talking about the collaboration with the Mexican American Unity Council, the city, legal aid, and my colleague, Genevieve Pajardo's clinic, I kept thinking, you know, you've got how awful would it be to have built and attain, obtain the American dream of home ownership and the security, the peace of mind, and possibly even the wealth generation, the wealth creation, and not be able to prove it to anyone and not be able to share it with the next generation. This is something that unique lawyers are uniquely able to do, and it really is positive sum. There's no I mean, that's obviously, family disputes can be complicated, but fundamentally, there's not necessarily an adverse party.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:28:14]:
Right? There's no Perry Mason Day in court. There's no worry about being ostracized by a member of the bar. You are sitting down with the family and helping them problem solve and giving them peace of mind that will last not just their lifetime, but their children's lifetime or their loved one's lifetime.

Bob Rivard [00:28:28]:
I ought to pause at this point and say from audience members who may have the comfort of of, resources and legal representation, if they know people, that are in need of your services at Salsa, how do they go about, finding out whether or not they qualify or connecting people to the organization? It's it's not like they get in the car and drive to somewhere and knock on the front door.

Speaker C [00:28:53]:
Yeah. So I think the the answer to that is, is in many ways subject matter specific. And this is one of the problems with the law, is that, you don't just need a lawyer. You need a lawyer who has expertise in the specific area in which you have a problem. And oftentimes, people aren't even sure what area they have a problem in until they talk to a lawyer. So, so there are existing resources right now to help people access lawyers in San Antonio, but there aren't as many as there should be. So I think in response to your question, I sort of have two answers. The first is, right now, they can apply for legal services with the various legal partners in the city, and there's a website that the bar association has created called SA law help, that is the repository of a lot of those subject matter specific directions.

Speaker C [00:29:47]:
But one of the biggest opportunities for growth in Bexar County is more self help resources that are tailored to the needs of Bexar County residents. And one of the things about the law that makes it particularly difficult is that the law everywhere is impacted by where you are and where you live and what laws and regulations exist in the place in which you call home. And the county that we live in operates differently than all the other counties in Texas. And as we all know, the state of Texas operates very differently than all the other states in The United States. So all of our resources have to be locally tailored. And right now, there is not a general place that members of our community can go when they have a legal problem and be able to be vectored to where they need to end up. And one of the biggest areas of unmet need in San Antonio is individuals who have family law concerns. Somebody who wants a divorce, somebody who has completely agreed with their spouse that they're ready to get a divorce, but has to wait six to nine months to even access the court system because of the backlog of assistance that's required in order to navigate that.

Speaker C [00:31:07]:
There there are just there are a lot of opportunities that San Antonio has to become a leader in providing our community members with access to the very systems that, we are all entitled to have access to. And the lack of right to a lawyer in a civil case, makes it a a non mandatory proposition, but we really shouldn't think of it that way. We should think of access to justice for civil legal issues as a mandatory thing that our government and our community has to prioritize. Because otherwise, we have problems that are created by that lack of access that just exacerbate existing issues. And, as you alluded to earlier, there are members of our community who are who have so much going on in their lives, and the last thing they need is the added stress that comes with shouldering this legal problem, that potentially could be easily resolved with a twenty minute consult with a lawyer.

Bob Rivard [00:32:08]:
Okay. I want to, tell our listeners that's salawhelp.org and and do put the.org in or you'll find yourself in South Africa. Oh. And and and, we we wanna make sure you get that. And then Maybe you'll be able to catch a plane back here. And then and then the San Antonio, legal services association, your salsa.org.

Speaker C [00:32:29]:
Org. S a - l s a Org.

Bob Rivard [00:32:31]:
That's right. We

Speaker C [00:32:32]:
have a couple of public facing clinics where people can just, walk in and receive legal services. Those are primarily dedicated to specific populations. So if you're a member at Morgan's Mac, you have access to Salsa's legal services, And anybody can become a member. They just need to go to Morgan's and apply. If you are, a veteran, then you can come to any of Salsa's veterans legal advice clinics.

Bob Rivard [00:32:57]:
And that's a core service that you offer at Salsa is specifically tailored to veterans.

Speaker C [00:33:01]:
It is. Yeah. And veterans, veterans have their own unique legal needs, and often have a higher barrier to accessing legal services because of many of the traumas they've experienced, as part of their sacrifice to our nation. And, salsa staff is uniquely positioned. We have veterans on staff who are providing the services, who understand what the veterans who they see have been through and are able to help them walk through the complex legal processes that are required, sometimes just to access the benefits that they already deserve and don't have. So, veterans who are looking for legal services can come to any of Salsas veterans clinics. And, the small state clinic is example of a courtroom courthouse help desk where the public general public is, welcome to come and ask questions about their specific legal problem that they're dealing with relating to, the probate or disposition of a small estate. So all of Salsa's services are tailored to families who are low income.

Speaker C [00:34:09]:
There are opportunities out there for people who have money, to be able to access paid lawyers through, the San Antonio Bar Association runs a lawyer referral service, and that lawyer referral service will help people find a paid lawyer. But for individuals who find themselves unable to access the legal system because of financial barriers, Salsa is, able to provide that, direct assistance in those tailored areas. The largest, provider of legal aid in Bexar County is Texas Rio Grande Legal Aid, the LSC funded organization I referenced earlier. And, you can they do, telephonic,

Bob Rivard [00:34:48]:
delivery of service?

Speaker C [00:34:50]:
They do, telephonic intake.

Bob Rivard [00:34:51]:
I'm sorry. Okay.

Speaker C [00:34:52]:
They do telephonic intake for, and and, a wide variety of civil legal services. But as we talked about earlier, the the capacity far exceeds their demand. So, there really is a vacuum that exists right now for that, first level touch, to help people navigate what they even need to be looking at in terms of, determining what their legal problem is and how best to resolve it. And salsa has grown and developed different programs in response to a lot of this community needs over the years. I I think in its next, next, generation, it will likely be filling more of those voids that I just referenced. Certainly, we need community investment, both support through the grants and contracts process, but also from public funder or private funders who believe in providing access. But the, the preventative work and the remediate of work are both so critical, and there is a need for an expansion in both areas in the local area.

Bob Rivard [00:35:56]:
Greg, I wanna go back to, housing, and I know there there's this whole, menu of services at Salsa and and and, specific areas of expertise that you guys address. But, it seems to me that during, the pandemic with the stimulus money, that came through the pipeline, the city of San Antonio was very effective in balancing the the needs and rights of tenants and the needs and rights of landlords, and they were able to use those funds to resolve case after case. But that money's dried up now, and we were talking before off off camera about the high level of of eviction notices that are filed daily, weekly, annually here in San Antonio. How how do we navigate that system without those resources now to sort of fairly represent both sides of the equation? And there are two sides to that. People fall in arrears for very, very legitimate reasons that are often heartbreaking to hear. On the other hand, if you're not a out of state owner of lots of multifamily units and you're a mom and pop, landlord or whatever, you rely on that income, it's a necessity as well.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:37:09]:
Yeah. It's a great question. To my mind, housing assistance, specifically rental assistance, needs to remain a community wide priority. I think as it was administered by the City of San Antonio, obviously, that money was flowing from the Federal Government down to the City level. It's hard to replace Uncle Sam's coffers. Right? But I do think there's a real place for it in our budgeting process. And I understand from what I read that, you know, revenues aren't necessarily going to be as high as they've been in the past in part because of the absence of federal stimulus, as there was present during the pandemic. But investments, targeted investments in rental assistance are positive sum investments for our community.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:37:53]:
As you mentioned there, there are a good number of landlords who are not that differently situated financially from the tenants they rent to. San Antonio has, you know, a healthy portion of its rental market is, you know, are folks who are renting out Casita, are folks who own two properties on the same block and one is the one they live in and one, you know, maybe sometimes it's something a family member lives in, but they try to rent it out when it's not being occupied by a relative. Folks in that situation are not all that differently situated financially or in terms of their ability to navigate the legal system. Now Texas has a pretty streamlined process for evictions. It's a process that moves quickly. It's a process that fundamentally favors property owners, so landlords. Disfavors the tenants would

Bob Rivard [00:38:45]:
be another way of putting it here.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:38:46]:
It is. It's always nice when other people make my arguments for me. So thank you for jumping in. But no, it's an uphill climb if you're a tenant, and you certainly if you fall behind on rent, but it's an uphill climb too. If you find yourself living in an apartment that's fallen into disrepair and you have tried all the ways that you know how to try to try to get it addressed and maybe you used to live in a different state or a different city, where you had the ability to withhold your rent to try to bring your landlord to the table. If you withhold your rent in Texas, you're at risk of being evicted. It's as simple as that. So it's really challenging.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:39:20]:
So I think at the citywide level, investments in rental assistance, they're positive. Some I do really do lift all boats. There's nuances to that, of course, who gets what level of assistance. What are those, what are those fees are paying for? How frequently can folks access the assistance? The city has done, I think, a commendable job of administering what now are very limited funds in doing that. But another area for investment and collaboration, to Sarah's point, about the importance of partnership are interventions at the courthouses themselves. Salsa ran a very successful court based program, an eviction help desk, that was really, was oriented towards helping tenants access their rights and to understand what is the calendar for an eviction. If you received an eviction judgment today, because you fell behind on rent earlier this month or last month, how long do you have to either move out or to appeal? What does an appeal look like? That sort of education, information, and empowerment helped mitigate a lot of the worst consequences of eviction. That was a collaboration between SALSA, Texas Revere Rand Legal Aid, the School of Law, the City Of San Antonio, and, of course, the counties.

Bob Rivard [00:40:33]:
Is it

Gregory Zlotnick [00:40:33]:
not a separated.

Bob Rivard [00:40:34]:
Not a continuing endeavor?

Gregory Zlotnick [00:40:37]:
It, it wrapped up in 2024. Unfortunately, evictions continue to be filed at very high rates, but that was that program was frankly a casualty of the end of stimulus era funding. So if this again, when policymakers are looking for where those target investments can be made, how can a relatively low dollar amount when it comes to a city budget or it comes to the county budget be leveraged into something that has an outsized impact? That's another part for it. Maybe thinking about rental assistance in chunks of $3,500 which is sort of the maximum amount of rental assistance that would go out the door under the city's program. Maybe that gets to too high of a dollar amount too quickly, especially during a maybe a more austere budget cycle like the one we expect to see. All right. Well, how about a more limited investment to support a help desk? And that can be designed in different ways. In other communities across the country, the help desk isn't necessarily targeted towards tenants.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:41:35]:
It's one that's available for mom and pop landlords and tenants alike. One that just sort of provides information down the middle so that everyone who's taking part in the process knows. Not the one that, you know, we would be in a position to work in on our housing rights project, but it's one that has a lot of favor and gets a lot of broad purchase in a lot of different communities. There are a lot of different ways to intervene, and to intervene not only at that stage, but the rental assistance stage and to also intervene at a more proactive level to make sure that conditions at especially multifamily apartments, which can be very hard to address, which are often owned by entities that are faceless, that are managed by folks who do not own the property, can get addressed proactively so that tenants do not find themselves, in the unenviable position of making good on their contractual obligations to pay rent for an apartment that in no way, shape, or form meets the definition of an apartment.

Bob Rivard [00:42:30]:
Greg, do you think that, with all the attention really around the pandemic that came to some of these absentee owners of multifamily units that were in horrible condition, they had mold, they air conditioners or HVAC systems didn't work, nonresponsive to, you know, tenant complaints about, sewage issues or plumbing issues. The city seemed to have, woken up a little bit, to the fact that it wasn't really using its enforcement capabilities, with building inspectors and so forth to remediate those situations. Have we are we doing a better job of that now, or is it still a persistent problem?

Gregory Zlotnick [00:43:10]:
I'd say it's a work in progress. The city certainly has taken steps to try to address those issues, whether, you know, most recently, you know, taking action to make sure that tenants are not this not do not have their utilities or water cut off if the apartment complex itself is the one that's fallen behind on paying saws, and to take steps around its proactive inspections program to really try to create some sort of rolling ongoing accountability. And I think at least ideally some level of transparency with the community so that tenants who are also consumers, can make informed decisions when they're going to rent someplace. Obviously, the power imbalance is pretty great when you're renting someplace to live. Everyone needs a place to live and only certain people own homes that you can live in. But the more that tenants can access that information and make an informed decision about where to live and say, hey, this is a place that, yeah, maybe there were some issues, but they tend to get resolved quickly. They're not paying fines. They've got, you know, they seem to have property management that's on top of it.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:44:15]:
There don't seem to be any red flags that I can find in my due diligence. Alright. I think I want to make my application there and I would like to live there. Versus not only does this place not look good on its face, but I see this record of code compliance citations that have gone unaddressed. I'm seeing fines in the thousands or tens of thousands. I'm going to try to avoid that place. That, I mean, to my mind, that all makes for a more efficient marketplace and it makes for empowered consumers that, and ideally create some incentives for those property owners, whether they're in town or not, whether they're subsidiaries of some sort of larger corporation or whether it's more closely held, to act, act in a way that's in compliance with our laws here in San Antonio. And maybe even more importantly, make this a home a place where everyone can find a home and a home worthy of its name.

Bob Rivard [00:45:07]:
So is that kind of consumer data here in Bexar County, that's aspirational or that's, or it exists?

Gregory Zlotnick [00:45:14]:
It exists at the city level. How public facing it is, I think it can be hard to access. I know that one of the goals behind the Proactive Inspections program was to create a more public facing database. My recent attempts to go pull it up and to make

Bob Rivard [00:45:31]:
it And you're an attorney.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:45:33]:
Yeah, have been, it's been more challenging recently, and, you know, my hope would be and of course, you know, there are ways to navigate it, and all those code citations are public records. You know, you can't obtain them from the city, but there is a whole separate and much drier podcast to be done about obtaining public records of which you would be able to speak at great length as a journalist. You know, consumers don't do that. It needs to be in some way that's digestible, accessible, and where people are, right? On a way that's on their phones, on social media, on a way that if folks don't have access to technology in public meeting places so that, you know, whether it's libraries or senior centers or other, heck, even available at churches, other religious organizations so that folks who are out there and looking for that next place to live know what they're getting themselves into.

Bob Rivard [00:46:22]:
So you said earlier that there's probably an average of 25,000 eviction cases filed, annually here in San Antonio. And I think opportunity, Opportunity Home San Antonio, which used to be the San Antonio Housing Authority, I think their waiting list for people seeking section eight housing vouchers, the variety of their services is now now exceeds a hundred thousand names, families, individuals, etcetera. So it seems to me we have a problem that despite all of the interventions and assistance that you're describing as getting worse instead of better, which puts the onus on the new, newly elected officials to say this is a problem that we're going to have to address in even more robust ways than we have so far because we're one of the fastest growing cities. And, unfortunately, these issues are growing fast along alongside that positive growth. So what, and, Sarah, you're leaving your position, and we're interested in where you're going, by the way. What what advice do you have for whoever succeeds you in in terms of what recommendations, your agency, Salsa, is going to have to make to local government and and what it's going to have to do internally to address to address the worsening situation.

Speaker D [00:47:41]:
So one of the things that I've learned over the last eight years in this role has been that, there isn't one solution, that there's a full spectrum of opportunities out there. Everything from legal information, like, with Greg just referencing at the eviction court. Just even understanding what it means to appeal and that your stuff doesn't have to be on the curb the next day, to full scale representation and a lawyer going into a courtroom with you and allowing you to have your day in court. There's so much in between those two bookends. Right? And finding affordable, efficient ways to provide that large scale access. We have to be so intentional about that because there's no possible way we're gonna be able to assign an attorney to everybody in Bexar County who needs one. So if we are focused on educating the community with targeted legal workshops, and providing that basic access to the courthouse in a meaningful way, then we will be making a very significant dent in the current need. There are larger, more systemic issues that are gonna have to be wrestled with, and I think the example of what was being done at the JP courts over the last couple years is is one specific innovative innovative project that had financial backing for a period of time, and during that period of time proved its worth.

Speaker C [00:49:20]:
But when you are constantly changing funding priorities every one to two years, you prevent innovative, effective programs like that from becoming sustainable, especially, when we rely on small nonprofits to shoulder the burden of the staffing of those. So when you know, and I you referenced this at the outset, you know, not what the nonprofit landscape looks like right now. And, Salsa, when the contract that Greg talked about came to an end, in 2024, we lost a quarter of our staff, because of the need to downsize following the loss of a significant contract. And it wasn't that the work we were doing didn't matter. It was that there was no consistent funding priority to ensure that the people navigating the JP court had the support of people who are educated in the law.

Bob Rivard [00:50:16]:
Is the, broader, legal aid ecosystem that you've described, this morning that Texas Rio Grande, salsa, the bar associations, other initiatives in in helping people access. Is that at risk right now because of the the cuts in federal spending?

Speaker C [00:50:34]:
Yes. So, salsa's only federal contract was the one that we lost last year. So we actually have some degree of stability compared to a lot of our nonprofit partners at this point. But, the traditional legal aid providers are fighting tooth and nail to retain their modest appropriations. And, there is a need for advocacy for those dollars to continue to flow down because if there is a, if if that sector shrinks, then the large expanse that we were just talking about who are already unserved is just going to grow. And, the professionals at these legal aid organizations have dedicated their career to doing poverty law, and it's a specific subject matter, you know, skill set that they have refined. And the threat to those practitioners' continued ability to practice is, a really big, broader community issue. And the legal aid, dollars, every legal aid dollar that's spent has we were talking about this the other day.

Speaker C [00:51:48]:
Four and

Gregory Zlotnick [00:51:48]:
a half

Speaker C [00:51:48]:
dollars in return.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:51:50]:
$7.48 according to the yeah. And got got around to the nearest penny, of course. Lawyers and math is always a risky thing. But according to some studies in Texas, that's how high the return is on every dollar spent on civil legal aid. And, I mean, this this really is worthy of a whole other conversation. That's Sarah's very accurately describing the amount of sweating that's going on in the civil traditional civil aid legal aid community. That's to say nothing of the impacts that are already being felt in immigration legal services.

Speaker C [00:52:20]:
And one of the things we haven't talked about at all is the people who don't have citizenship status but are in need of legal services are now not obtaining those legal services because they are fearful of, going out and seeking services.

Bob Rivard [00:52:35]:
Being arrested.

Speaker C [00:52:35]:
Yeah. And, I think the there are a host of factors that are making it an incredibly difficult time to be a nonprofit and a very difficult time to be a legal services nonprofit on top of that. There has to be increased community investment. We are relying on volunteers to step up and fill a lot of these gaps. And particularly in this time of financial uncertainty, the role of salsa and its sister organizations is going to become even more outsized because of all of the threat that exists to the traditional legal aid programs. So we absolutely need, the community support. We need all of the lawyers in San Antonio to step up and, come to the table and be part of the solution. And, you know, we're five years into building the structure to make it an easy ask with the support that folks need to get involved.

Bob Rivard [00:53:36]:
Can people go to your, website, sa-lsa.org? That hyphen's important, folks. Take you places you don't wanna go without it. Can they donate

Speaker C [00:53:50]:
Absolutely.

Bob Rivard [00:53:51]:
To five zero one three c?

Gregory Zlotnick [00:53:52]:
We're a

Speaker C [00:53:52]:
five zero one c three organization, and, we are, we don't even have, office space that we lease. We are incredibly lean, mean machine, and all of the money that is donated goes directly to, operating our free legal services and providing those critical, barrier breaking advice and counsel sessions in San Antonio and in the surrounding counties.

Bob Rivard [00:54:21]:
And Well, hopefully, we're gonna, get some generous, members of the audience who will help you because the problems that you have sketched out today are they're really enormous in scope, but there are also, ways to remediate the, the challenges, and so that's encouraging. Sarah, are you going into private practice from here?

Speaker C [00:54:41]:
No. I'm actually gonna be joining, Greg at Saint Mary's.

Bob Rivard [00:54:44]:
Oh, okay. On the on the faculty?

Speaker C [00:54:46]:
Yes. Working, working with law students, which I'm really excited to do.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:54:49]:
Are you

Bob Rivard [00:54:50]:
going to donate some of your pro bono time to Salsa?

Speaker C [00:54:52]:
Of course.

Bob Rivard [00:54:54]:
Greg, how are you going to, replace Sarah? I imagine it's challenging to take somebody who is an educated attorney with all the, the debt that comes along with acquiring that status and get them to agree to run a nonprofit rather than be in private practice.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:55:12]:
Yeah. I think the role will be a wonderful one for, for the right person with a combination of vision, drive, dedication, and compassion for our community, especially the San Antonio community, that Sarah has demonstrated across all fronts these last five, seven, eight, nine years, depending on the nature of the role. We have an interim executive director right now who, has previously served as the managing attorney. He comes, as Sarah mentioned, he's not only a veteran in the armed forces, he comes as a Tillman Scholar, just a remarkable leader to guide through this transitional time. And as the organization, you know, looks for a permanent Executive Director, permanent Executive, it's really talking I think it will be, as Sarah said, incumbent upon all of us, whether we're Board members, whether it's the candidates who are coming through, to really clarify our vision for what comes next. Sarah mentioned the headwinds and the challenges that face the legal aid community writ large. But what are challenges, if not opportunities? And opportunities to engage, opportunities to channel what so many of us in the legal profession feel as, as our duty to speak up, our duty to insist upon the rule of law, insist upon, you know, what are often highfalutin concepts like due process, and to make it real and make it tangible and not just in a way where we can pat ourselves in the back and go home, but actually move the ball forward for clients. And that's the work that Salsa does every day.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:56:51]:
I'm confident will continue to do so in the years to come. And I imagine that we've got the right leader out there, who's just waiting for the opportunity, to build upon the foundation that Sarah and all of her colleagues at Salsa have laid over these years, and to continue to make, continue to make the organization, really a centerpiece of of our community, writ large.

Bob Rivard [00:57:18]:
Well, Greg and Sarah, thank you for your important community service that that you do and reminding us, in the political moment we live the importance of empathy, that all of us should be, actively feeling toward those that are, more vulnerable in our society and certainly in our city, and thanks for coming on to Big City, Small Town today.

Speaker C [00:57:37]:
Thanks for having us.

Gregory Zlotnick [00:57:38]:
Thank you.

Bob Rivard [00:57:43]:
Please share this episode with friends and colleagues, and do sign up for our new newsletter, Monday Musings. Big City, Small Town is brought to you by Western Urban, building the city our children wanna call home, and Geekdom, where startups are born and smart ideas become businesses. Our producer is Corey Ames, video by Erica Rimpel, sound engineering by Alfie de la Garza of Sound Crane Audio. We will see you next week.